S3 E8: Byte: Catchups, Updates, and Diversity

0:00Hello and welcome to Datum.

0:02This is season three, episode eight.

0:03Ravi, how are you doing?

0:04I'm I'm doing well.

0:05I'm doing very well.

0:06It's been uh it's been a hot minute.

0:08It's been a while since we last spoke.

0:13Wow.

0:13I think

0:14Uh the last time we did a podcast, coronavirus was just basically ramp yeah, I I'd say that's just ramping up because yeah, typically in the UK we reacted late to everything.

0:25So a month in was basically, you know, where we

0:27we would have been right at the start, right?

0:29Of of things locking down.

0:30Uh and and uh fingers crossed now we're sort of uh on the other end of it and um

0:35We've we've seen the the peak of the trough sort of get flattened.

0:40Yeah.

0:41And now we're on to the I think the tougher bit, which is sort of eradicating the disease, which is where the science kicks in, right?

0:46We've all been talking about the science, but now is now when

0:49people actually have to find a vaccine and we have to still stay safe, make sure people are safe and and a lot has changed in that time, right?

0:56It's a v yeah, it's is is that there's a lot of vigilance that's coming

0:58into it.

0:59But yeah, in in terms of uh non-coronavirus related things, a lot has changed.

1:03It has.

1:04It has indeed.

1:05I guess I guess the biggest news is that me and Tim are no longer colleagues.

1:09I know, you're an absolute traitor.

1:10You decided that you had enough of me or you were either fed up with being in my shadow this whole time so and decided to go somewhere else, right?

1:17W one or the other.

1:18That that consultancy line was uh a bit too formidable and I was never gonna catch up

1:22Yeah.

1:24But yeah, so I'm no longer working for the information lab.

1:26Um as of the first of June I am now an employee of the City Football Group.

1:31Many of you people listening will probably know that I'm su I've been super into sports analytics.

1:36In fact, that was my route into the data and Tableau world.

1:40So yeah, this was almost the it was one of those

1:43I guess it's one of those things where if if I look if I didn't take the opportunity in a year's time, it would have been a very what if situation, right?

1:51I think yeah

1:51um the the situation itself and and the role and and the team that I'll be working in is almost a perfect storm.

1:57Um particularly for me.

1:59Yeah, exactly.

2:00And um I th uh you know, obviously it's sad to see a a good friend and colleague leave leave

2:06uh the company I work for, but at the same time uh it made a lot of sense.

2:10It's hard it was hard for me to sit there and tell you as a friend not to sort of go for it as it were.

2:15Um because i it's

2:16literally ticked all the boxes and I knew how passionate you are about the subject as well and you haven't sort of hidden that fact so yeah the perfect roll a perfect roll perfect timing

2:25Uh great move, I think.

2:27Yeah, exactly.

2:28So so the city is it's a really interesting company, the City Football Group.

2:31Uh it's it's it's fairly unique.

2:32I think the only um

2:34The only similar sort of setup is the Red Bull franchise.

2:37Um and they of course go across multiple sports.

2:39Um so the Red Bull franchise own uh I think four or five soccer clubs around the world.

2:44So new they've got Red Bull New York, Salzburg, Leipzig.

2:48um as well as the the Red Bull racing team.

2:50Uh so the City Football group star after the takeover of Manchester City.

2:54Uh a couple of years later they start with this thing where they've started acquiring parts or whole of clubs.

3:00Uh so currently they're up to nine.

3:02I don't think they're done.

3:04Um there's there's a few I think there's a f there's definitely a few more uh places around the world to take over.

3:09But you know the the the fact you I'll be working with um within the team of global football

3:14uh in in a stream called football intelligence.

3:17Um and my my role really is to start enabling and building the the all these clubs on an analytical journey where we start speaking the same language and

3:26building that data culture around, you know, primary starting to starting around Tableau, but with a lot of scope to move elsewhere.

3:31So I think uh having a data in tech podcast is gonna be good fun uh to think about the different things that it's gonna

3:37apply to my world, right?

3:38So um because you know things th things that you're interested in, like wearable tech start start uh suddenly becoming you know part of my day to day.

3:45Um so so that's very cool.

3:47Um but the first few weeks have been good.

3:48It's it's it's strange starting a new job in the same exact seat

3:51That I left my old one.

3:54Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

3:54That makes sense.

3:55Uh you've worked from home, right?

3:57So Yeah, yeah, exactly.

3:58You've started a new place uh while still in your pajamas and shorts.

4:04Yeah, to to my new employer that that is not how I started my first day.

4:07Yeah, you were I saw you on that day, Ravi.

4:09Don't lie to me.

4:10Don't lie to me.

4:12Yeah, no, it was um it was very good.

4:14So uh yeah, it's been the first good good few weeks, I think I'm getting to grips with the

4:18the volume of data but also the um the the different challenges there are and I think one of the biggest challenges I'm gonna face is uh to not be the magpie like spotting every shiny thing in

4:28uh with within the organization being like oh I can fix that with some data or like oh I can quickly build a viz.

4:33Because really the the the role is about ten percent of my time being spent building things and the rest is enabling educating in sort of

4:41of um elevating the the data culture and the the data literacy and the language.

4:46I think the really interesting thing is building that language in lexicon about getting people to start thinking about data as part of that conversation and not forcing it on them and like

4:55Like that's it's really, really cool, interesting thing.

4:57And uh one of the things I'm excited to do is share that journey because um I really do want to share that that that sort of thing because like I've spent the last what 18 months

5:05and that customer success role trying to enable lots of companies and saying these are the things you should do now it's time for me to actually do the things I was a recommending clients to do.

5:15Yeah you kind of locked into one place uh to make that happen right

5:19Um but I I think it's also liberating because uh I mean I mean you're you're very passionate about sport.

5:24So when you're doing something you're passionate about, it's very easy for you to actually apply yourself.

5:28and um sort of see see through that um that sort of newfound energy right and uh and see it applied in something that I I guess you've worked theoretically you've also worked on it practically in lots of other sort of organizations and in through your consulting background.

5:41So I think you're bit being a bit unfair on yourself there.

5:44But um yeah, I think it's gonna be a great, great journey.

5:47I'm looking forward to seeing sort of how you progress.

5:49Not just um, you know

5:51i i in that company in particular, but it's a whole new sector that typically I think Tableau has always tried to make a big play into sports analytics and

6:00I've always seen it as a really tough transition because actually sports analytics is one of the areas where two things happen.

6:06There's a lot of propriety, sorry, I can't say that word.

6:10Let me try again.

6:11There's a lot of propriet I can't say it.

6:14Proprietary.

6:15It's a real tongue twister.

6:17Propri no, I can't say it.

6:19Proprietary

6:21proprietary uh sort of analytics uh involved if you think of f1 for example no two teams use the same analytical system

6:29to analyze essentially standard parts, right?

6:32Um if you look at uh football or if you look at NBA or any sport, every single one of them uh invests in analytics as an internal capability, right?

6:41Because

6:46Yeah, 100%.

6:47I mean I can tell you today there's gonna be a lot of stuff that I can't talk about right there.

6:51There's gonna be a lot of um things that, you know, the the the way that the group works and the way that um my role or developers.

6:57Are you telling me we have we have a sports analytics professional on a podcast and he can't talk about his job?

7:03What's going on here?

7:12It's gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna be fun, right?

7:13Like it's um I'm getting my excuses in alley.

7:16Um worry, don't worry fans.

7:18I'm gonna spend every episode trying to get something out of him

7:21So yeah, I'm not sure.

7:22I mean you're absolutely you're absolutely right.

7:24Like the the the amount of uh data we have um and the the proprietary metrics we have means that we're not gonna share everything, but I think there is something to be said on a competitive environment um where

7:38A competitive environment of people who um uh are using data and I think i a healthy competition is is a good

7:44You don't want to be uh the best in every field.

7:46But uh so th there there is that education piece across the industry.

7:49And I think um you know as you said, Tableau's tried to get into this field quite a lot.

7:52And um I I at this point in time I can I can still agree that Tableau is the best uh tool for the for the

7:58things we're doing like it's self-serve, it's easy to use, it's um relate is relatively straightforward to get started with.

8:05The interesting thing is almost pacing and sort of making these things into bite-sized content.

8:11Um so that's that's really cool.

8:13Good.

8:14Good.

8:14I think it's gonna be a fantastic transition.

8:16Um looking forward to sort of seeing where you end up with that.

8:18Um it's sort of happened very quickly since our last podcast, not least because I haven't actually put the previous podcast up

8:24So if you're listening, you're gonna get a double whammy of uh podcasts uh in your podcast player of choice.

8:30Um and uh yeah, I'm look I'm really looking forward to to seeing sort of where you end up, um seeing sort of how you develop through the role.

8:37Obviously I'll latch onto everyone.

8:38every single public bit of information we can share on the podcast.

8:41So be sure to get that.

8:43If you know Ravi, um if you work in another club and you know Ravi

8:46Uh maybe you're a new listener because you've uh followed him since his recent transition.

8:50Get in touch.

8:51Let me know what you'd like to find out about this guy.

8:53I will do my best uh behind the scenes to to get some insider information.

8:59I'll have words.

8:59Don't worry.

9:02I am an Arsenal fan.

9:03Let's just stop right there.

9:04Let's move on.

9:05Yeah.

9:05Yeah.

9:07What's the last score?

9:083 nil?

9:09Yeah, yeah, yeah.

9:09Yeah it was it wasn't good.

9:10It wasn't good

9:11Yeah, it wasn't good.

9:12Well one of the other things that that happened is uh actually just today, so we're always speaking on Monday the twenty second of June twenty twenty.

9:18And uh I think we've both just stopped um hopped onto this after watching the Apple Podcast.

9:22Right.

9:22Apple Podcast.

9:23Apple Podcast?

9:24The Apple Keynote.

9:25Yeah.

9:25Yeah.

9:26Absolutely.

9:27Apple Keynote.

9:28This is this is this to me is like uh it's like what do you call it?

9:31It's a rite of passage.

9:33Every year, every single event, I will get on a stream.

9:36I think I sent you a screenshot of uh me with uh the livestream on the left.

9:41No, actually I had the live stream on my iPad.

9:42On the left I had the verge.

9:44com homepage.

9:45uh like open up and on the right I was in a uh Google Meet with a friend of mine in Amsterdam, Ben, who um passionately loves Apple products.

9:52Uh he works in advertising and sort of um

9:55um uh sort of creative agency space.

9:57Um and so we always have a little chat about where the technology is going.

10:00So that's like our opportunity to catch up every so often as well.

10:03We obviously catch up on other occasions, but we'll

10:05both of us have followed Apple products for a long while.

10:08So this this was a very interesting keynote, not least because Apple have announced that they're going to be moving to a new um hardware infrastructure.

10:16Which isn't based on Intel chips.

10:18Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

10:19They're they're they're developing their own chips in house.

10:21Um I think the exciting part there is because of that there's no

10:25That they're creating the entire ecosystem a hard way around that, which which is really exciting purely for the integration perspective on the software and hardware did that did they develop right

10:33So there'll be almost because everything's in-house, you start to expect that things start to connect better, that there's faster performance, that transitions between applications

10:42particularly native ones uh become easier uh and more more fluid.

10:45Uh and you know the hit go on.

10:48I was gonna say the big winner there is um a big announcement on the verge already is that

10:52that because they're transitioning to ARM, all those apps on iOS and iPad will just run natively.

10:56So you won't need to do any of the sort of weird things they're doing today with Catalyst.

11:00You'll just be able to just deploy them.

11:02And hence they've changed the interface to look a little bit more like a an iPad, an iOS, right?

11:06Yeah, right, right.

11:12iPhone OS, right?

11:14It's not a big standalone point and click here, almost stepping towards a two-in-one MacBook feel like right, like we're gonna get a touchscreen MacBook soon that it feels like, or something similar.

11:24Yeah, but let's see.

11:26I really hope we do get to that, you know, if they go in this direction and it makes it easy for me to pick up my iPad, fire up Tableau.

11:32and then sit down, open my laptop, and just carry on as I am, then what this actually means is that I won't need my laptop because my iPad should have all the same capability.

11:42And if not more than my MacBook.

11:46If my MacBook is on an ARM chip and so is my iPad, why do I need my laptop?

11:51Yeah, right, right, exactly.

11:53So th that that to me is the real sort of deal clincher here.

11:57If they're transitioning everything to ARM, what's the need of uh

12:00you know, uh what's an evo laptop as we know it.

12:03If you have an iPad device you'd you'd understand what I'm talking about here.

12:06Um so yeah, very interesting, very interesting time.

12:09But um I think it's really interesting how Tim Cook opened the event, right?

12:12Yeah, no, yeah, I think the I mean the event itself was c purely virtual.

12:15Uh Apple were one of the first to say uh yeah there won't be a WWT C this year, we're gonna go purely virtual.

12:20Everyone stay home.

12:21at the very very early point of the um the COVID nineteen um pandemic.

12:25Uh but Tim Tim Cook almost I think it was almost the most charismatic I've seen them probably because of the whole like it's pre scripted and pre-recorded.

12:34The transitions were great.

12:35I I recommend watching them because well Apple did a a vo very good virtual event.

12:40Um but um I I think what what Tim Co opened with was a very powerful statement about the Black Lives Matter um movement.

12:47And I think I think we addressed it really well, right?

12:50Yeah, I think so.

12:51Um I missed I missed bits of it, but I think Tim Cook, even during the um when the issues were going on, I think he he himself is gay and so he's openly talked about the challenge um that

13:03you know, uh people like him face in society and have faced in the past.

13:06Uh and he's talked about it in commencement speeches, uh graduation speeches for those of us in the UK.

13:11Um and he's also talked about how, you know, Apple takes a stance on that particular issue and actively tries to

13:18I th yeah, and exactly.

13:19And I think we know both both of us are um people of colour, um uh part of the BAME um group and it's it's really good for uh for I I guess i for me and I d I I I guess it's

13:28speak for you as well to see people like that speaking openly about it and that that you know they are still learning that there are still things that they they can and will do better on.

13:36Um because this isn't something you just fix overnight and it's not something that

13:39uh is is just a product of, you know, um someone was t calling this at time protest season.

13:44Uh, you know, last year there was the global warming protest and this it's like, well, there's something very wrong and if these things are continually brought up then, you know, maybe it's th

13:53It's uh should be time for some actual change and some action being taken.

13:57Yeah, it's more than just a season, right?

13:59It's um there's a there's a lot going on.

14:01I think it will we'll probably um it's probably worth going into sort of

14:05uh the the Black Lives Matter issue in in a little bit more depth because I think uh there's a there's a couple of angles.

14:11I think one of the I got really frustrated over over a couple of different sort of angles

14:17um I have to be careful how I word this because um I did I did a video obviously if you haven't had a chance I'll put a link in the in the show notes I'm not saying you have to go watch this video I'm just saying this is where I spent half an hour sharing my views um online

14:28on the particular matter.

14:30And I have to say, Ravi, I got some really interesting responses, um to say the least.

14:34Um broadly speaking, a lot of people were very sort of um interested to hear my opinion.

14:40I have to say I led with the fact that this video was shared in the context of an internal organization.

14:46So I shared this video internally to prompt discussion in the

14:50information lab.

14:52And it actually did exactly that.

14:53We got a lot of um good discussion out of it.

14:56My boss, uh Tom Brown, he actually posted a

14:59blog post with the information lab sort of stance on on the issue um openly saying where we can improve where we can do better where our current sort of diversity sits and

15:08We focus as a company a lot on gender diversity.

15:11And I think what we haven't done in that process is just generally focus on diversity.

15:17altogether.

15:17And so the first step of that has been about sort of collecting the metrics so we can more clearly understand whether or not we are doing a bad job because we can't we can't well we can't practically say we are doing a bad job and I don't I don't personally think we are.

15:29We also can't say that we're not doing a bad job because we don't have the data to to to prove it.

15:34So collecting the data is obviously one one really important step.

15:37Hearing the views of people in the company.

15:39is another.

15:39We've we've had sort of open forums where we've had opportunity to talk directly to the leaders of our company um in in sort of very useful settings.

15:47Normally these things are done in sort of town halls, but we've

15:49actually had them in groups of six and that means you can have meaningful discussions right because you are in a much smaller groups it's actual people talking to each other and you get a lot more sort of context out of that and we've had several of those sessions that have been

16:02captured in sort of in various forms.

16:04And you know, I as I said in my video, these things take time.

16:07Uh, you know, we can be activists today, but over time, it's going to take time to see the the results of that because

16:13is there's a couple of things.

16:14Obviously you can move quickly and activism generally does promote that.

16:17That's why we've we've seen statues here in the UK going down and elsewhere in the world sort of

16:21getting defaced because that's something you can do immediately.

16:24But when you need to change something like this at a at a not just a cultural level but societal level and also organizational level.

16:31And it's an issue that's not typically well understood, leave alone well monitored, then you have to sort of do things in the structured way.

16:38And I'm not saying that that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done quickly.

16:40It's just

16:41It's just an acceptance that we have to sort of allow a bit of time for people to sort of react and digest.

16:47And people like myself are taking their time to share views.

16:50So you also have to allow space

16:51for that, right?

16:52Right.

16:52For that to be considered, right?

16:54Yeah, exactly.

16:55And I think that that's a really important point.

16:57Giving people the agency and the ability to um share their views.

17:00But and and I think

17:02Well uh y as you said that there is there is an element of this being a cultural change uh and the sort of the mindset.

17:07Um I I I I think we s we spoke about this um before and uh between us and we I talked about like

17:12like well no one really says they're a racist.

17:14Um what we're really talking about is racist racial bias and yes you know i I I think even if I I'd even call myself out on on a few of these things.

17:22Like they're um I think given the the environment you you grew up in and yeah

17:27the the views you hold, uh there there is an element of racial bias even in myself and as a as a member of the black and um uh BAME community.

17:36So

17:37Yeah, it it it's a slow process.

17:39I don't want to say a slow process, but it is a pro it is a process.

17:42Uh and the best the best and uh most progressive way I can think about is having that open discussion

17:47And uh challenging and considering the things that you do normally.

17:50I think um I I liken this to in some ways um to you know the the f the feminist movement and people that

17:58looking towards uh gender equality and di equality of all genders uh through as well as LGBTQ.

18:04Um because a a a lot of these things are fundamentally stigmas and things that are

18:09attached over time uh through many historical points and things that have happened to people and the sort of stereotypes they're built over time.

18:16Yeah.

18:17I think all of these things the th the things we can do is just continue to correct and

18:22And inform people about you know things that they might not be aware of.

18:25For example, you know the uh one example that I I call out quite a lot is the i in the US um

18:33you know, the the they often heralded in the eighties and nineties uh the the South Asian communities, so my community, the people I'm of of I'm of Indian descent.

18:41They went over to North America.

18:43Um

18:43And it was a case of, well, you know, the the people who are in the black community aren't interested in as well as these South Asians.

18:49So well, consider how these people were brought over, right?

18:52Like

18:52the the black black people were a product of the slave trade, whereas South Asians had a very strict controlled immigration based on high level of entry.

19:01Right.

19:01So you're only you're being very selective in the people that are arriving in the country.

19:06So, you know, y th that level of selection means that there is a inherent level of bias.

19:11And I think that yeah, that bias Yeah, exactly.

19:13And that butt guys gets built on and passed down through general.

19:16generation.

19:16So yeah, it's a it's an inter it's a very strong discussion to be had.

19:20I think it's a very uncomfortable decision for many people um discussion for me for many people.

19:24Uh but that doesn't mean it's not worth having, right?

19:26Like Yeah.

19:34And you know, for progression where

19:36You know, we we get to a point where these things I don't want to say stop mattering, but we start talking less because it becomes a case that the the the the number of cases, the number of actions against

19:48um people of a uh minorities start to decline, hate crime start to decline.

19:52Yeah.

19:53Th this is what you aim for, right?

19:54The a level where th this stops being an issue.

19:57You know, that I think you've seen lots of posts being like, you know, if you if you fit up a hearing about racism and Black Lives Matter

20:02imagine how the minorities feel, right?

20:04Like this is this is day to day for for many of us.

20:06Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:08Absolutely.

20:09And it's it's such an interesting sort of

20:11I find it interesting because uh I feel like in the discourse there's also sort of a lot of disagreement um in in amongst the BAME community about how to go about this, right?

20:22There's a lot of frustration, pent-up frustration, but also built-up frustration, not just over the last few months because of things like which have disproportionately affected.

20:32you know, it's certain ethnic minorities.

20:34Uh but it's also sort of the the reasoning and the sort of philosophy about that.

20:38Um just to give some some personal examples.

20:40When I sent the video out, um I got heard a lot of positive comments that people very grateful for sharing.

20:45Some people actually agreeing with their experience.

20:47The one thing I was very sensitive and aware of going into it is that my my challenge with race and my issues with race over time.

20:55are very unique to me because uh they're they're sort of things I experienced and I specifically highlighted that I knew that other people have suffered worse racism, which is why I went through sort of this really bizarre effort of sort of distinguishing between bias and

21:08Direct racism.

21:09I think that's exactly what I said in the video, right?

21:11And I think some people took that to mean that uh bias bias in itself wasn't racism, you know.

21:16I I heard some comments from people saying, look, it's all racism.

21:19And I I fully agree.

21:21But then on the other spectrum, I got messages from people who went to the same university as mine.

21:25who flatly disagreed with my experience of university, who said that you know university was their worst time they've they've ever had in terms of experience.

21:34and experiencing racial abuse.

21:36And that was that was those were comments about the same university I was saying I was really happy to go to because that's where I found that I was able to say

21:43of explore my own um sort of I don't see and come out of a of a shell as it were.

21:48And yeah the thing is I didn't s make that video like with sort of ignorant of that fact.

21:53I knew that and that's why I said very specifically at the start, this is my experience

21:57and what I've gone through is mild compared to what others have gone through.

22:01And so it's been interesting to get it from both angles.

22:03I I actually had quite a few sort of frustrated messages about the way I sort of recorded my video and some

22:08Maybe some people didn't agree with the sentiment and you know, I I I sort of said to those people, listen, this is my experience.

22:14Okay, like this is what I went through.

22:16I think not everyone can share it publicly.

22:18I agree.

22:18agree and not everyone has to.

22:20But I've got a duty to take some of that feedback on board and share that more widely.

22:24I'm doing that now, but I'm hopefully going to get opportunities to do that in the time.

22:27Tableau community sort of coming forward, even though that was never never a starting point.

22:31We'll come on to this in a second.

22:32I think the tablet community itself is probably another space where I could probably do a little bit more to kind of encourage the discussion and try and see what comes out of that

22:40to try and build something constructive.

22:42Yeah?

22:43Yeah, I mean the representation matters, right?

22:45Like there there's been lots of like if you think about um the

22:49uh you know, if if we if we take this um out o out of the out of the conversation towards something a bit uh a bit different in in terms of film, right?

22:56That we talk about film in terms of um representation of women, representation of uh different minorities within within the film industry.

23:04Um two two examples I can think of in my at the top of my head are Black Panther and um Crazy Rich Agents, two films that came out in the last five years.

23:12Yeah, yeah, and a lot was a lot was made of the the fact that you know that these really matter because

23:18For everyone it r representation has uh uh echoes in different ways.

23:22You know, Spider-Man um was it the um out of the spy into the spidey verse.

23:27Same same reason, like you've got representation of black superheroes, you've got

23:30representation of um Asian front frontline characters uh where where it isn't pulling on racial tropes.

23:36Like these these things are progress and I'm not saying that this is solving the problem but it's it's things like this where everyone has a story and everything everyone has different

23:44touch points to relate to.

23:45And that that's the moot that's the m where you get true movement towards cultural change.

23:50Absolutely there are things that can be taken on overnight, you know

23:54Actions to curb police brutality and the the the level of um bias within the police community in general.

24:01Um

24:02in in the US parti in particular, but also just being aware of those biases and making sure that people are aware of uh and and understand where these things come from.

24:09It's not about necessarily agreeing with all things.

24:12But I think having having those conversations and having the facts and the um in in our world, I guess the data points out there and being spoken about is exactly where you want to get to.

24:21Yeah, exactly, exactly.

24:23And I think the final sort of um uh I guess it's not really a

24:29final gambit but the final sort of perspective to this that I found really interesting is that the there's an element to which um I said it in the video there's a lot of uncomfortable discussion

24:40that needs to happen.

24:42And I think too quickly, especially if it's had on things like Twitter and sort of these social platforms that reward sort of short-term, quick, you know, power statements, right?

24:51Yeah, it ends up sort of going into this sort of very frictional discussion.

24:54Right.

24:55Uh 'cause you can't perveade tone.

24:56You can't pervade tone, you can't perveate tent, and you can't show that there is a level of humility and a level of I don't have the answers, but this is what I see.

25:04Yeah, and so what ends up happening is you have a really difficult conversation

25:08in a public space and a platform that's not designed for that kind of conversation.

25:12Really the best way to have this conversation is face to face.

25:15And you know, look at the situation we're in with COVID, right?

25:17You just cannot do that.

25:19It's not it's like the worst possible time for this kind of topic to to come up.

25:24And uh uh what people have to get really comfortable with

25:30And I say this to both sides of the argument, you know, people who want to know more about diversity and understand sort of the challenges of the BAME community, but also people from the BAME community themselves.

25:38What we have to acknowledge is that because of that, we're going to be talking on platforms and tone is going to be so hard to judge.

25:44I'm not saying we should be allowing of sort of

25:47um disruptive behavior or disgusting behavior or or vile statements or just you know flat out ignorance that you know there's always a space where someone can do a little bit of upfront research

25:57an understanding on the topic before entering the conversation cold, which you know so you know um that happens a lot in these issues that people make statements like that.

26:05I saw it on Question Time BBC just the other day.

26:08No.

26:08Um poor guy.

26:10But elderly gentleman just said, you know, I have views too.

26:14I was just oh no, don't don't say what you're about to say.

26:17It was so bad.

26:18It was so bad.

26:20And

26:20The flip side of this, listen, we have to we have to allow people to make mistakes and then constructively

26:29Tell them, listen, okay, I I see your perspective.

26:31I see that.

26:32I know you maybe not articulate with the way you're saying it, and maybe you're struggling to piece it together because this is a conversation that isn't commonly had.

26:39This is how it helps.

26:40And you can often tell immediately if someone's just being sort of confrontational or if they're actually willing to listen.

26:45Because if they're willing to listen, that conversation and that that that the effort to say that will be very easy actually.

26:50You'll find it it'll just come naturally to you, right?

26:53And I think those are the kind of opportunities we have to go and seek.

26:55Rather than everyone just assuming that you know it's an uncomfortable topic, let's not say anything about it.

27:00We really do actually have to go and find the uncomfortable discussions and find a platform

27:05Um if it's not on if it's not face to face, we have to create those platforms.

27:08This is a time to be creating those platforms.

27:10And I th I I think there's also uh the messaging element to that as well, right?

27:14Yeah.

27:18I think there is no one right answer.

27:27And it might come in different

27:28different shapes and sizes at different times, right?

27:30There you don't need to be the loudest be the loudest uh person at the start of the table, right?

27:36So yeah.

27:37We need to give people opportunities to talk in a s in a sense.

27:39safe place and um another another sort of point I made is um there's an element of context I made this in the video again we have to understand the context of scenario

27:49I think one interesting example I gave was in the UK.

27:52I I made a statement that uh you know black and minority ethnic um individuals aren't discriminated discriminated by COVID-19.

27:59And what I what I explicitly meant in that in that

28:02comment is that listen COVID nineteen if you get it um doesn't discriminate on the color of your skin if you get it and you have you know you're you're you're in one of these sort of groups that's supposed to be staying safe you have just as much chance of passing away

28:16um because of it as the next person with exactly the same conditions.

28:20Uh it doesn't discriminate on the colour of your skin.

28:23Now that said, people of colour and people

28:25people from the Beaumont uh community have been uh passing away in in larger numbers compared to other communities.

28:32And that's because of a lot of reason.

28:34Now in the UK I can say that you know access to healthcare is

28:39It is in another sense because uh those from BAME communities don't often present themselves to healthcare um professionals as soon as sort of um non sort of BAME um

28:50uh in individuals and patients who present themselves to the hospital typically sooner, right?

28:55But there's also the aspect that a lot of our BAME community work in frontline um activities like uh healthcare um

29:02like you know security guards, taxi drivers, bus drivers, most of those professions in the UK are actually occupied mostly by

29:10those from the BAM community.

29:12So they're also being discriminated in that sense.

29:15Now that's a very different issue to um to sort of the more direct sort of form of discrimination.

29:20And when we talk about policies to deal with that, that's it's a very sort of sensitive subject.

29:24Now, I've probably worded what I've just said in an awful way, and I know someone listening will probably worry, oh my god, I can't believe what he's saying.

29:30But that's my point.

29:31This is a tough discussion

29:33And if what I've just said to you you find uncomfortable, well that's exactly the space we need to be in.

29:37And that's exactly the kind of thing you need to be educating me on a better way of thinking.

29:41about that and saying that and vice versa um you need to sort of listen to what I'm trying to say and try and see if there's a a common ground or maybe there's something that I don't know or there's a fact I don't know.

29:50And sort of coming to the fore and saying, Hey listen, um I hear you, but this isn't right.

29:55Here are the facts rather than just sort of saying, Ah, I'm wrong, you know?

29:58Yeah, I mean this this movement can't be temporary, right?

30:00This this is the key thing.

30:01It can't be a temporary movement, it can't be a case that uh it's it's you you

30:04you what you're say you what you're saying is taking verbatim when used against you.

30:08It has to be a Yeah, exactly.

30:09Yeah.

30:09It has to be a case of let's translate and understand what the what the intention is and have a have that conversation because you as we know taking words and statements out of context does not

30:19Yeah.

30:20Tell you anything in general at all.

30:21So um as data people, uh we we absol we absolutely need to think of these things in in terms of the wider field, right?

30:27My only my only wish with that video is I've made it ephemeral.

30:30I posted it on YouTube saying

30:31It's now there permanently.

30:33So my view my view in two years changes or gets better or whatever.

30:38I've still got a permanent like

30:40view of what I thought.

30:41So I I'm I'm probably gonna update comments over time.

30:44Exactly.

30:45I'll update it with comments over time.

30:46I'll just add something in the description to say, hey listen, okay, this view has changed and here's what it is.

30:51And if you

30:52People take it, take it.

30:53If they don't, that's fine.

30:54But I'm also not I'm not I'm not, you know, that's what I said, and that's what I said, and I'd like to leave it there as a record of that.

30:58Um if that makes sense.

31:00Yeah.

31:00Yeah, completely completely.

31:02I think what the one of the other things that was uh I've talked about, um I guess this is more of a specific topic within the Tableau community, is um this topic isn't

31:11Like everyone was scrambling to get data on um coronavirus and COVID nineteen and publish their their sort of take and their live tracker as it were.

31:19Um the scramble to get information and find data around this topic was

31:25I think few and far between.

31:26I think partially due to I'd go as far as saying virtually non-existent in the realm of the scheme of things.

31:32Um and you know, a couple of people made this comment to me actually.

31:36in in sort of private chats, um you know, respect those people's privacy, so I won't share it who they are here.

31:41Um but it's not a it's just a view that was sort of commonly held.

31:44And I think that's there's two reasons and I I don't want this to be

31:47to be um sort of a criticism of the community because I think it's symptomatic of the wider problem we have.

31:53I think it's part of that conversation piece, right?

31:55It's a difficult conversation.

31:56You don't feel people don't feel

31:58It it's funny, right?

31:59People don't feel like they're uh entitled or have the knowledge to speak about that, but then at the same time aren't epidemiodermiologists to talk about

32:07COVID nineteen, right.

32:08Right, exactly.

32:09And it's it's that sort of um it's that sort of space.

32:12For fear of doing something wrong, you're doing nothing and again.

32:15I said this in my video, you know, silence is exactly where these things perpetuate, right?

32:19Um, and there's not enough being done there.

32:21I think there's also

32:23Now there's this sort of dialogue about why is it always those from the BAM community who have to step up and represent themselves in this in this in this instance?

32:31And I think I agree with that to an extent.

32:33You know, I I do agree, yes, it's always sort of the responsibility of those in the Bayham community to set up, you know, get on these panels and talk about the experiences, right?

32:41And um

32:43The work is always sort of put on those uh who are maybe um in the less fortunate position.

32:48But I'd also go as far as saying, well, there is an element of we do have to do that because we need to articulate what we experience because it's not a common experience for most people

32:56Yeah.

32:57We're in them in the minority in that sense.

32:59Um I say that even though there's a large amount of people who, you know, have experienced it.

33:03I really liked something that Channel 4 did.

33:05I'll put a link to it in the notes.

33:08Where we used to have the Thursday clap for the NHS, the NHS is a healthcare provider in the UK.

33:13Every Thursday at 8 p.

33:14m.

33:14we did this thing during coronavirus where we clapped the healthcare workers who were working there.

33:19uh just be two minutes before eight o'clock.

33:21I think at eight o'clock for two minutes.

33:22What Channel Four have done um is immediately after the news they've actually inserted this five minute segment and they did it for three days where they took four people from the BAM community

33:32of different uh social classes.

33:34So they had an actor, they had a middle class professional, they had someone just a working class individual.

33:41And then they had someone one other sort of professional.

33:45Anyway, they had really good spread of people.

33:47And for five minutes, for one minute each, and they cut it into sort of 10-minute segments.

33:51They each talked about their first time they experienced races.

33:54Okay.

33:55And it was very, very good because it just showed you all of them were talking about experience throughout their lives.

34:01So some so one person experienced it when they were five and they remembered it to this day.

34:05They're now getting

34:06sort of uh treatment for it um uh i in terms of mental health treatment for it because it's something that's actually perpetuated to their life.

34:13Um another one was an actor who at eighteen

34:16got into rado, was performing really well and people were making jokes on the side.

34:21Another one was a 10-year-old kid who's now an adult, you know, in her 30s and 35s, talking about it for the first time.

34:27It's a channel 4.

34:28Um and it was really beautiful because they were going all the way.

34:31They were using the N-word all the way through.

34:33Um I won't say that on the podcast because Apple will

34:36hunt me down.

34:37Maybe that's a discussion we need to have, you know.

34:39Um, and it was a really sort of powerful piece because they were talking raw about the topic.

34:44It made you feel uncomfortable just listening to it.

34:47It made you want to do something.

34:49And I mean I watched it and I looked to Brie and you know she was looking at me and it it sort of fostered that exact response.

34:54We're kind of looking at each other like, are you hearing this?

34:56You know, and it's great to hear that because that is a sort of that that is the extent of what's happening.

35:02happening and it's not happening in small instances and people are finally getting the courage to talk about it, just like in any other scenario.

35:09Yeah.

35:10I think that that the the powerful thing there is almost everyone of uh of a you know B AME background

35:17can point to that first time.

35:19Yeah.

35:19Right.

35:19With the where they where they experience some level of racial bias or racism.

35:23And it's it does affect you, right?

35:25It does affect you in a way that you don't expand and and almost don't all that there's almost a lag as well when you're growing up because you don't realize it.

35:31Until you're a bit older and then like damn that was that was not okay from what whatever happened.

35:36Um and that that's where it starts to affect you.

35:39Um and you know there there are different conversations that happen in households um where where people are of a minority.

35:44Right.

35:45Conversations and things that um you know other communities can't fathom.

35:49So Yeah.

35:50Exactly.

35:51Um you know, experiencing racism as being a part of the fabric of people's life.

35:55That's literally the channel for

35:56for um uh sort of, you know, quote from a from an individual they spoke to, uh actor David Howard.

36:03And it's a really interesting sort of um uh

36:06uh sort of thought thought exercise I think everyone needs to do and they need to set their own context.

36:11Um but also more broadly that I think it it's a context we need to bring to organization.

36:16I I think I think you know people ask, well, how do I know if my company's doing the right thing or not?

36:21How do I know if the company's on the right track?

36:23What I tend to say on this, and I've said this sort of loosely, as someone who's not a professional,

36:28this he he doesn't have any experience of this what I'd say is listen if your company is struggling with other diversity issues like gender diversity or um uh

36:39you know, people sort of struggling to LGBT, yeah, to express them, you know, their sexual preferences, um, really struggling to come out with those kind of things.

36:48Or maybe you have um really poor sort of levels of

36:52sort of diversity in certain aspects of your company, whether it's through hiring, uh and y you're openly aware of that, those issues.

36:58Maybe gender diversity is an example of an issue.

37:01Well, the likelihood is that those those challenges in diversity are probably also relevant in this BAME topic.

37:09And in the same way that you sort of passionately look at those issues.

37:13You have to ask yourself, why have you not looked at the issue of black and minority ethnic individuals and how they're represented in your organization?

37:20Because just as much as those issues have been on a journey for the last

37:24I think decade, um, if if I if I'm brutally honest, in sort of s you know, broad society, well, that decade is a decade that hasn't really been experienced in some cases.

37:33And every company's in a different place.

37:35Uh you know, I say this from the information lab perspective.

37:38I think we're in a good place in some of those other areas.

37:41We're not perfect, but we're definitely in everyone can everyone sector the trend.

37:44Yeah.

37:44Yeah, and everyone can do better.

37:46Yeah.

37:46Yeah, exactly.

37:47And we can always do better, and that's the thing.

37:49You have to know where you're starting from to know where you have challenges.

37:52And so if you're still tackling gender diversity or um, you know, sexual um

37:58preferences in your organization, and this is likely an issue that you're probably not even aware you have, right?

38:03Because ironically, this isn't in in terms of the order of sort of um challenges that companies take, it tends to go in that order, right

38:11Yeah, and and that's an interesting one.

38:21rank diversity, right?

38:22Like is it as in if you can't get this diversity, right?

38:25What's the point of even bothering with the rest?

38:27Like well no, uh surely you should be thinking about all of them and

38:30It's it's a it it's it's such a different discussion and all of these things should be on the same level and of course some some may seem more prevalent and more important um but having all of these in discussion

38:42is is important.

38:44But as as we've mentioned, the this is this the Black Lives Matter and the BAME discussion is one that should continue.

38:52I don't think it should stop and I don't think it should be

38:55um sort of separated as an anomaly um because it should be part of every conversation.

39:00Um and I I as I said, as we've mentioned through this thing, I think um we we really want to make sure that and we encourage space to have this conversation.

39:08So

39:08Yeah, exactly.

39:10Yeah.

39:11Yeah, that's that's a really deep topic.

39:13Um I think I'll apologize up front if if we've made anyone uncomfortable or

39:18unhappy about what we've said.

39:19But what I'd encourage you to do is to reach out and talk to us.

39:21I think lots of people have reached out and talked to both of us.

39:24We've both been involved in discussion offline to entirely different groups of people.

39:28This is the first time you and me are talking about

39:30I mean we've talked on WhatsApp and stuff like that, but I think that a lot of this is ad lib and you know this the we've not

39:39We've not got a script or any idea of um where does it be a good idea?

39:42Ravi, the whole entire show is ad lib.

39:44Come on.

39:46Right exactly.

39:53Jesus.

39:54As you mentioned about the the language point, like the the language we speak is important and of course we may have made some discretion, but you know, we w we're always open to have that conversation.

40:02I think

40:02that's what we'd encourage.

40:03So uh if you if you do have a bit uh things to share or uh things you'd like to talk about please do reach out and um please do get in touch with us.

40:10Yeah.

40:10Okay, yeah, and and so yeah, I think, you know, I I just want to finish on this point of the video I shared.

40:16I I shared a video because guess what?

40:19Video is something I'm really passionate about.

40:21Right.

40:21So I actually wrote I I said in the video I wrote it all down and then I thought there's no way I'm posting this anywhere because who the hell is gonna read?

40:30um you know five sides of A4 written by someone who's never written anything in the public context.

40:36And and the platform I I do know a lot about and I can communicate well in I think

40:41is video.

40:41So I literally took what I wrote and I said okay how does I how do I make this a video?

40:45I changed the structure, I change the order and then I just sat and talked to the camera for what I thought would be 15 minutes.

40:50It ended up being half an hour.

40:51I didn't edit it, I just thought you know this is too much work to edit it out and

40:55You can tell when something is edited and polished.

40:57I didn't want it to be that.

40:58So I just said it and I was like, it came across very authentic, right?

41:01And I think that that was the sort of message you went for.

41:03Yeah.

41:04And so listen, if you don't feel comfortable doing a video, that's also fine.

41:08You know

41:08I I didn't do a video because I'm saying everyone should do a video.

41:11Uh I also don't think everyone should be public about it.

41:14If it's some if it's if they've gone through a traumatic It's a very personal thing.

41:17Yeah, it's totally up to the individual.

41:18And so I I didn't do it as to set an example of what people should be

41:22doing.

41:22I think some people took it as that.

41:24Um however what I'd say is listen, talk to someone.

41:26Whether it's just you know your fiance, your wife, your husband, your friend, your best friend.

41:32Talk to someone about it because the issue is when we keep it sort of to ourselves, when we don't share it to at least one other person, we don't get an opportunity to vent.

41:40Venting is actually quite an important part of sort of forming your your thoughts and your structures on

41:44on these on these views into a constructive manner.

41:47It's also a good way of being challenged on that perspective.

41:49And lastly, I think it gives you a little bit of a a sort of a testing ground.

41:54So that when you do have to talk about it to someone else, you've already talked about it and it's not a painful experience the first time round.

42:00And normally the first person you talk to who you approach will probably be understanding because you'll trust them to be that person that understands and can

42:07Can sort of guide you through how to articulate yourself.

42:09So just this simple act of talking to someone, whether it's one individual or your family or even a larger group, that's all I was sort of trying to sort of highlight in the video.

42:18And I was talking to the community broadly.

42:20Um

42:21But you know, that's just because I n I naturally felt comfortable doing that.

42:25Um I've done that discussion before uh you know with peers or to myself or you know in in reflective

42:32Right, right, exactly.

42:35Yeah.

42:36I mean I mean it's it's funny you mentioned video, right?

42:38'Cause uh there's been a

42:40Uh to to to sort of close off that problem move on to a to the next one.

42:43Um it's been a sort of rise in video content, uh I think we've seen.

42:47Sort of uh we we're talking about the data is and and especially of course the tableau community which we're both part of

42:53Yeah.

42:53Neomorphism had had its month in the spotlight.

42:56Everyone's got their modern dashboard template ready to go.

42:58Clean design.

42:59Oh don't get me started.

43:00Don't get me started on clean design.

43:02design.

43:02But but now the pivot to video has started in the world of data viz.

43:06Like um uh I remember in the sports analytics world and the journalism world pivot to video was a huge thing about three years ago.

43:13You know everyone's pivoting to video.

43:14Video is the optimal way to consume

43:16content, everyone's watching videos, two to three minute videos.

43:19That's what you want to do.

43:20And uh yeah the the um tableau blogging community is now caught on as well so um yeah I I I actually think this coronavirus sort of um pandemic has has pushed people

43:30Um to explore new platforms, right?

43:32Because Absolutely.

43:33What what were we doing before already blogs?

43:35And everyone was already reading them, okay?

43:37And what you found yourself is sitting

43:38on Zoom, getting more comfortable just literally talking to someone on a screen.

43:42I think that's it.

43:43You're comfortable looking yourself, you're comfortable talking to randoms.

43:47Exactly.

43:47And the I know this is someone who's watched himself on videos countless times

43:52the big hurdle is getting over that initial thing.

43:54And actually having done that and you know Zoom a hundred times, having the the video of yourself in the top right hand corner and you know, you've got to stop looking at it and you don't feel so bad.

44:03You've got you've gotten over the uh the digital hurdle as it were.

44:06And now all of a sudden, wow, it's as easy as just doing the same thing, but this time you hit record and you get to see what it looks like before you share it out.

44:14So why not, right?

44:15Right.

44:15And and I I I think it's absolutely fantastic for so many reasons.

44:19Accessibility, accessibility.

44:22You know, um I said accessibility twice that I meant it in two different forms.

44:26Accessibility in terms of a different way of people thinking.

44:28Accessibility in a

44:29sense that some people struggle to read.

44:31I myself have mild dyslexia.

44:33So I really struggle to do that.

44:37People that have English as a as a second language, right?

44:40Yes.

44:46And you know that that that visual transcends language, right?

44:49My my second biggest audience on YouTube.

44:51is India.

44:52After United States, it's India.

44:54And by a very close margin.

44:56And it's two reasons.

44:57Okay, English is a commonly spoken language, but I tell you what.

45:01The transcription on YouTube is unbelievable.

45:05Yeah, I think we talked about this in the past, right?

45:07I would comfortably let Google translate my videos into any language and tell people to use that as a transcript of my videos.

45:14video.

45:14I've actually I've literally I I literally download the transcript of my YouTube videos and I keep a text copy as as a transcript um on my computer so I can search my videos.

45:24That's how I search topics.

45:25I download the transcript, I save the text note, that when I search on my uh little folder of video content, I can see all the videos that have referenced a particular topic.

45:35That's literally how I work, right?

45:37Um and it's it's

45:39It's that good.

45:39And okay, it's not it's not uh you know you know the the Tower of Babel level, no, but it's definitely enough for someone to watch that and get the sentiment, especially with Tableau where you're actually going through something on

45:49on the screen and you're showing them, you know, they don't necessarily need to understand everything.

45:53So it gives you a much, much wider audience you can reach as well.

45:56Think about like the most successful um well I mean starting in our committee

45:59Andy Krubel's tip videos have been watched countless numbers of times, right?

46:02Because they're so they're easy to follow.

46:04Andy doesn't edit Andy doesn't edit them because he wants people to see that he also makes mistakes, which is I think a great exercise.

46:11Yeah, exactly.

46:13Moving forward, you've got Khan Academy, uh you've got an entire like plethora of YouTube videos of people.

46:18You do me right.

46:19All of these things are consumer.

46:20streaming through video for a reason.

46:21Linda Learning.

46:22LinkedIn Learning.

46:23Yeah.

46:23Linda.

46:24com, which is now LinkedIn Learning.

46:25If you've got LinkedIn Premium, you get LinkedIn Learning free.

46:28Yeah.

46:30So so it is it's I think

46:32It's good because you want those multimedia platforms, right?

46:35Like as you mentioned, you you I mean we we've talked about before.

46:38I I like reading your blogs, but you you absolutely hate writing them, right?

46:41Right.

46:42So so video is a great medium for you to be able to first collect your thoughts and then show people what you're doing.

46:50So yeah, yeah, I think I think it's it's an interesting trend.

46:53I think people uh it it's a lot of fun, I think.

46:55I I've recorded a few videos uh when I when I was at the information lab through like

46:59like tutorials and how-tos.

47:00I have not done what un actually my channel.

47:02I went back and looked.

47:03Uh everything's been wiped with my um information lab Google account being

47:08being destroyed.

47:09So it's okay.

47:10It's a clean state for me to start on.

47:11You're dead to us.

47:12I told you.

47:13You're dead to us.

47:14So yeah, I I think it's an interesting thing.

47:16And I as I said, um as long as that you've got many people interacting with it

47:20content it's it's only a good thing.

47:22Um this is why podcasts write the written word, uh public speaking, all of these things are important uh books.

47:28I mean everyone's writing a book these days.

47:30Uh that there's another one as a as a good reference point for a lot

47:33people um so yeah it's it's it's a it's an interesting time ahead but I think uh lockdown has got people thinking about the ways to share their content and their views so um I'm looking forward to to consuming that that content yeah

47:47Yeah, exactly.

47:48Um and uh all I can say is listen, if you want help with YouTube, anything, reach out to me.

47:55Literally, video the thing about video video people is we love sharing information.

48:00Because the thing is, is that

48:02The content is all unique.

48:03Like if you do a video, Ravi, about something and I do a video on the exact same topic, guess what?

48:08We'll appeal to two entirely different audiences.

48:10Right.

48:11Some people might hate your voice.

48:12Yes, exactly.

48:13Some people might hate your voice, they might hate your style, but they'll love another person's voice and style.

48:17And YouTube gives them that choice.

48:19YouTube just algorithm just loves shoving stuff in front of them.

48:22of your face.

48:23So the more the more we can get more people out there in the Tableau community making videos about the same thing, the more people are bound to find the product a tableau and love it and get involved and join our community.

48:35And that is the most, just just simply put, the most important thing.

48:38And dare I say it, I think YouTube and many other platforms actually have more power to make our community more inclusive.

48:47Because by their nature they're they reach a much broader audience and have a sort of absolutely sort of good track record of reaching wider audiences, whether it's the people who consume them or the people who make the content.

48:59Just take a simple look at YouTube creators.

49:01as an example, right?

49:03They are a very diverse crowd of people.

49:05Okay, they might all come from the same countries like Canada and America and so on and so forth, but they are a diverse group of people.

49:12Take the top 100 YouTube creators

49:14They're a naturally diverse group of people because surprise, surprise, they're not discriminated based on their background.

49:21They're discriminated based on the quality.

49:23of their content and it's such a perfect synonymous sort of translation of what we need to happen in in the tablet community.

49:30Not that it doesn't happen already, but it

49:32If you want to go to a community where that is already happening.

49:41community.

49:41So and and frankly put, you also get to see a face behind the content.

49:46Yeah.

49:46Which you'd argue Twitter doesn't actually let you do because you just put out lots of visas.

49:50You might see the little profile icon.

49:52That profile icon is just a static photo.

49:55It's just a static

49:56a piece of content.

49:56When you start to hear someone's voice, you start to see them on video, you start to connect with them in more ways than just a photo.

50:03Okay.

50:03You start to understand who they are fundamentally as an individual.

50:06And I think that's also another really valuable connection sort of this way.

50:10building you know regardless of the in inclusivity of the and the um sort of diversity diversity point so I I'm really passionate about video probably more so as you've just figured out um and yeah you know

50:21I I think the more people we can get behind it, reach out, ask for help.

50:24There's hundreds of places and hundreds of free resources.

50:27You can do it as a GIF all the way to really high-end produced stuff, even better than what you find on, you know, Plural site or whatever

50:35You can do it at any level you want.

50:37Shoot in red, right?

50:38It's so accessible.

50:39It's so accessible.

50:40It's unbelievable.

50:41Um you can even do it on your phone, for goodness sake.

50:43Your phone can edit YouTube videos.

50:46It's it's it's honestly that easy in today's world to say.

50:49Reach out, ask for help, we'll find a way to get you online.

50:52Excellent.

50:53Yeah, I mean

50:54This this has been a uh a bumper podcast, right?

50:57Like we're the we're I think we're gonna we're gonna call this the unplugged one, given that there's been Unplugged, yes.

51:02I mean we we try to keep to the rough structure normally.

51:04Um and and I'm running on KK as you can see Ravi so

51:12Coca-Cola drink.

51:13Yeah.

51:13Yeah, towards the um the the red man.

51:17I can ping the There you go.

51:19There you go.

51:20Sounds real.

51:21That's a real thing.

51:22Yeah, exactly.

51:23Um But yeah, just before we finish, I think congratulations are in order, Tim.

51:32Yeah, not just yet, in November, on the way, on the way.

51:35Super, super happy.

51:36Obviously I've known for a while.

51:37I've kept it to myself for for a bunch of reasons, obviously.

51:41But yeah, with uh three three three months to go, it's felt like the right time to share.

51:45So yeah, super happy.

51:46Um shared it with the community, shared it in a bunch of

51:48places.

51:49Um yeah.

51:49In case you don't see me or you don't see videos from me uh for six months from November, you know why.

51:55Because you'll be sleeping every chance you get.

51:57Obviously.

51:58Yeah.

51:58Obviously for hiding in a corner.

52:00One of the two

52:01Well one thing I was thinking actually just before this podcast is um we started the year we're halfway through the year.

52:06I think we've done about uh well this is episode eight, so we've done eight podcasts this year.

52:10Um now what's interesting the

52:13This season, sorry, yeah.

52:14So uh yeah, this this season we we started the year talking about like in a year's time this could be a very different podcast.

52:20For completely different reasons, right?

52:24Every sense

52:25Yeah, well the reasons we talked about were not like at all what's happened so far this year.

52:31Um wow.

52:33However, yeah however, yes, it's it's absolutely true.

52:36um the this um this time next like what january next year is gonna be a very different podcast so who knows where we'll be and the world we'll be living in but it's um

52:44Yeah.

52:44Won't be colleagues.

52:46I'll be a father.

52:47Yep.

52:47Uh so man, so many things.

52:50So many things.

52:50So let's see.

52:51Let's see what happens.

52:52It's um

52:53It's been a good year so far, uh in in some ways.

52:55Uh tricky in some others.

52:57Um hopefully, I mean we'll we're we're gonna try and uh loop this back up again, the the podcast.

53:02So do send out any suggestions for topics.

53:04Um should do a year in review actually

53:06Um we should take our beginning episode, take all our predictions and sort of see how they played out.

53:13Yeah, I wanna I don't think I I wonder if we did make any predictions, uh but we definitely should at the end of the day.

53:17We've made a few, we've made a few loose ones.

53:18Yeah.

53:19Yeah.

53:19Let's so l let's definitely do that.

53:20But um uh thank thank you for listening.

53:23I think what what w as I said, please do send in any suggestions of topics or any comments or feedback on on this episode.

53:30Uh we'll be we'll be getting back into the swing of things over the next

53:33couple of months.

53:33Um so hopefully you have a few more bits of comment content in your podcast.

53:37Just as long as uh Tim remembers to upload them.

53:44I'm on the case.

53:45I'm on the case.

53:46Jeez.

53:47Oh my gosh.

53:47No, it's easy.

53:49Are we are we done yet?

53:50Are we done yet?

53:50Can we can I get off this microphone?

53:52Can I hang up anymore?

53:53To the point.

53:54I think that's a podcast.

53:56Uh take care everyone and hopefully see you in a couple weeks time