S3 E7: Byte: Analytical challenges during Coronavirus

0:00Hello and welcome to season three, episode seven of the Dayton Podcast.

0:04Ravi, how are you doing?

0:05Surviving.

0:06I think that is the best place to be right now, right?

0:08So you want to be surviving.

0:10Absolutely, absolutely.

0:11Uh it's um

0:13We're into our uh people keep counting weeks down, but normally you only count down when you know how many weeks you're gonna be in lockdown, right?

0:20So we currently don't know that.

0:22So yeah, it's um

0:24It's it's a very interesting time, very interesting time.

0:26I think I think it's more interesting for those of us uh like me who I live I live alone.

0:29Um sorry last time I had familiar human contact was about a month ago.

0:33So I think oh more than a month actually.

0:35'Cause I think it was March tenth.

0:37Um I I hadn't thought of that.

0:39I mean I yeah, I live with my girlfriend and a dog, so being lonely in both senses, not having a pet or even

0:45Um, you know, being able to socialise with family.

0:47That's that's a big one.

0:48Yeah, for sure.

0:49I think what's interesting is like it you still get the uh social exhaustion, but I think it's been replaced by zooming or webinar or just virtual social exhaustion.

1:00Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1:01Exactly.

1:02That's still there.

1:03Um you kind of have to adapt to it uh as we as we kind of go through the phases, right?

1:09It feels like we go through different phases of this lockdown.

1:11First one is realization, second one is reality, and then

1:14the third one is frustration.

1:16I guess routine comes next, right?

1:18It just becomes normal.

1:19Right.

1:19I think that's what I'm slowly getting to is sort of like, well, this is my day now, right?

1:23Like this is this is I get up, I have breakfast.

1:26I decided if I'm gonna run now or if I'm gonna run in the evening.

1:29Later.

1:30Yeah, exactly.

1:30And then that's about it.

1:32But it's good.

1:32Um luckily enough we've been having some wonderful weather as well to peer out from inside.

1:38Absolutely.

1:39And uh I g I guess, you know, we want to try and bring a ray of positivity here.

1:43Um we we've uh we've pushed out the last two episodes.

1:47So if you haven't caught those out, you know

1:49Go and catch those, gather lists.

1:50They are related to coronavirus, but they're looking at sort of different aspects of it.

1:53So definitely episodes to check out.

1:56As we go into this current phase, an interesting topic came up in the last couple of

2:00weeks uh focused around contact tracing.

2:03Um basically this idea that um you know in order to get control of this virus what we have to do is develop a vaccine and a test

2:12But then uh because those take time and you want to try and allow society to kind of normalize in some sort of new way, as in, you know, let people go back to work, but obviously not in the sort of typical circum

2:24circumstances is you know we all cram into sardine sardine cans on a tr on a and a on a train but you know when there's a breakout be able to track where that breakout is happening so

2:34This is the concept of contact tracing.

2:35Yeah.

2:35And it sounds kind of very difficult.

2:38I think the old way of doing that is you simply ask the person, where have you been?

2:41Who have you spent time around?

2:43Um and typically you have to spend a meaningful amount of time with with someone

2:46someone for it to actually count as it were.

2:49However to quote um House, Dr.

2:52Gregory House from the show House, everybody lies, right?

2:55Like you can't really trust

2:57Trust people too much, so this is why the idea of contact tracing is coming about.

3:01I think that the so that the sort of purpose of this episode

3:05It's to talk a bit about that, right?

3:06So th there's um a couple of different uh uh providers who are building building out uh an application for contract tracing

3:13And I think the mechanism for doing this is is mobile phones, given that we all largely have a smartphone and this is the best way of tracking people.

3:21um as it were.

3:22So Apple and Google are working together, allegedly, to build out a um similar app for the both the App Store and the Google Play Store.

3:31There's a bunch of uh the VergeCast, for example, uh are doing weekly uh podcasts and they've they've talked about this in those as well.

3:39Um

3:40But for me, this this sparked, we we talked about this in the last episode, a couple of like, you know, the legislation that comes through during this time is kind of like, you know, w when you've got uh state of emergency after a terrorist attack.

3:52Um you can put through legislation to put an app on everyone's phone to know where they are and who they've been in contact with.

3:57However, what you really want is

4:00Do you trust that person, the government or the company more?

4:04And I think that that's why we want to talk a bit about digital identity today and how technology really uh impacts and how we can use it to for for situations like this

4:13uh but but sort of things you need to be aware of and sort of the liberties you wanna you want to share.

4:17Like um on the Verge Cast there was uh one of one of the three uh hosts one of them was heavily talking about this is how they get you man this is how they start taking away your freedom

4:27Uh in in very American terms.

4:29Exactly.

4:30I mean I think the Americans refer to terrorism laws, which were brought in immediately after nine eleven.

4:35In fact, they were sworn in hours after 9-11.

4:38Watch the film Vice.

4:42They've stayed in place up until now.

4:43They were never temporary rules

4:45Have just basically become permanent rules.

4:47And so it's probably worth just very briefly explaining uh what contact tracing is.

4:52So uh in in a in a technological sense, so Apple and Google have basically formed a partnership, uh Tim Cook um and

4:58And uh Sundai Pichai, the Google CEO, Tim Kokapo CEO, they basically got together and they're developing two things.

5:04Now, the first implementation is very simple.

5:06It's essentially an API.

5:08Um, this is an interface that allows um companies like the NHS or

5:12Or in America, the different healthcare system providers to basically hook into the phone's native operating system to access information that's stored in the Bluetooth chip.

5:23And so what's gonna happen is that the Bluetooth chip

5:26is essentially going to be almost broadcasting itself out to people.

5:29By the way, this is opt-in, so you actually have to opt-in for this capability in the app of the provider

5:34And so you can broadcast your Bluetooth details.

5:36And what other phones will do is they'll basically be listening into that.

5:40And if you're around someone for let's say 15 to 20 minutes, it will actually remember who you are around using that Bluetooth sort of broadcast

5:48signal.

5:48So let's say I'm Tim, you're Ravi, we're in the same room.

5:50Your phone is pinging my phone.

5:52If they do that for 20 minutes, your phone logs that it was near mine and that's stored in the phone for 14 days.

5:58Now if you imagine this over the 14-day period, let's say three weeks later I then get coronavirus, well it's possible for me to say in an app that I have coronavirus and that will immediately notify the healthcare provider.

6:10of all the other devices that I've spent a meaningful amount of time around.

6:14And then that will allow the governments and healthcare providers to very quickly trace people they should be tracing to help.

6:20to control the lockdown.

6:21So so immediately in in my head this this can conjures the um so I've been watching the Batman uh the the the Christopher Nolan Batmans recently.

6:29Uh just because uh I I maintain to this day that Batman Begins is by far and away the best film of the three.

6:36Um

6:37But yeah, so so in in the dark night in order to find the Joker, what the what Batman does is uh shows this um technology he has of uh you turning everyone's cell phone.

6:47as they call it in America, into a receiver.

6:49So you're getting it almost a radar, sorry, sonar, radar sort of like feel to map the entire city to find where where the Joker is in order to stop him blowing up two boats

6:59Now, it the for me, that's what this sounds like, right?

7:02I mean it the the thing to add here is contact tracing as as a concept, as in the technology that does this, the Bluetooth pinging, happens already.

7:09I think we talked about this in the last episode.

7:11That in order to get

7:13good Wi-Fi or you know um sharing sharing contacts your Bluetooth is always on for a reason nowadays right so before you said turn off your Bluetooth because you knew the you know the assumption was that it used up power

7:25Uh now your Bluetooth is always on because it has to be.

7:28In order for it to find out where you are and triangulate your position on Google Maps when there's no signal, Bluetooth helps do that, right?

7:34It sort of gives you a rough idea of where you are based on that circle.

7:38Yeah.

7:38Uh Wi-Fi to finding out where you are in the the Wi Fi hotspots nearby.

7:42Uh if you have a smartwatch or a smart device, the Bluetooth is what communicates with that.

7:46The second you turn off Bluetooth

7:48You know, you your your your wearables become redundant.

7:51You know, you you're not getting a good location on your on on where you are and all these different things.

7:58So

7:58It's quite interesting to think about that as a concept.

8:00So when the when we were talking about this earlier, I remember um my boss uh talking about you know the the only way forward is having some sort of passport.

8:09You know, so when you go to uh Kenya for example or any any of the right that area you have to have the yellow fever passport to say you've been vaccinated.

8:16So similarly I feel like you you this is where we're gonna get to.

8:18You're gonna have to have a badge or lanyard or passport on you

8:21To make sure so but in order to make sure you never forget that, you need to make sure that's on something that you will probably never forget, which is well, your smartphone.

8:30So I think that's where the ideas come from.

8:32I think it's a it's a very smart idea.

8:34However, you can see, you know, my my my reaction is it is akin to Lucius Fox.

8:39in in The Dark Knight, which you know is is kind of sick.

8:42It's like beautiful and elegant and works.

8:46However, it's also really, really creepy.

8:49Right.

8:49Yeah, yeah, exactly.

8:50Exactly.

8:51It's a really tough it's a really tough sort of um moral decision.

8:56Yeah, it's uh it's it's almost a paradigm, isn't it?

8:58Because you've gone you've gone from this position where if you'd suggested anything like this in any other scenario, you you wouldn't have gone near it with a barge bolt.

9:06But we now live in a world where I think there's some surveys being done of um the NHSX.

9:12So NHSX is the National Health Service.

9:15Digital transformation unit is a really long name.

9:16It needs an acronym that's better than that.

9:18Um that's why they have the X, Tim.

9:20Well the X stands for four things, apparently.

9:24It's algebra, simple algebra.

9:26Yeah, they they surveyed 6,000 people.

9:29Uh and apparently only 74% of users would actually be keen to install uh the contact tracing key.

9:36capability on their device, right?

9:37To opt into it.

9:39And you know, if you look at Singapore, uh the actual figure of those who actually, you know, were willing to do that was 17%.

9:45So there's a you know there's a wide gulf of um

9:48uh sort of uh cooperation there.

9:51And then the other thing is this kind of system only really works if it has really good coverage

9:56Like you th you say 74%, well that's a good ratio.

9:59Well, again, that still doesn't give you the full picture, right?

10:02Because it it it all depends on the locality of that of that uh

10:06sort of concentration.

10:07Let's say 74% and the majority of that is in London.

10:10It gives you poor visibility in other regional sort of geographical areas.

10:14So um it's kind of challenged partly by the lack of participation.

10:18The system only works when everyone's in it together.

10:21But then also there's a flip side of that, which is trust.

10:23You're not going to have full participation.

10:25People don't trust that this kind of capability isn't going to go away once this is over.

10:29We're all happy to do it and comply.

10:31But people want to trust.

10:32And the two companies we're being asked to trust are two companies that, let's just say, don't have a great trust relationship with the public.

10:40Um, Google for obvious reasons.

10:42Apple, even more so, if you look at their sort of

10:44um more recent faux pas with battery life and uh all that kind of stuff.

10:49People inherently don't trust motives behind these companies.

10:52But I think what's interesting is you know the the Apple Apple is still more trusted because there's they they're so public about uh we're doing this to stop your privacy.

11:01Oh yeah, by the way, we're gonna hide about how much battery life you've actually got.

11:06So it's almost like uh the the like Huawei is a similar example, right?

11:09So they they basically tell oh yeah yeah we're doing exactly what every other mobile phone company is doing, which is collecting data on you.

11:14We're just telling you about it.

11:16Right, exactly.

11:18And and and it's an interesting it's an interesting dilemma because you see what what I was thinking in my mind, I was walking Toby before we had this podcast and I was thinking in my mind, well

11:26Toby Beam is.

11:27Can this sorry, yeah, I should say Toby Bean.

11:31I don't I really hope no one walks their kid or anyone, likely.

11:36Can I only literally be my dog, I think, in that in that context, right?

11:40Unprecedented times.

11:43Fair enough, fair enough.

11:44I wasn't just going out in the wall.

11:45for kicks.

11:46Um so no, I was thinking about it and I thought, well, you know, do you really need contact tracing to be able to figure out, you know, movements of people like

11:54Could you could you string together a series of companies that as a collective could actually do the same thing without you ever knowing?

12:01Okay.

12:01Okay.

12:02And Google is probably the closest company to that, uh, if that makes sense.

12:05Um if Google and Apple were one company, my word, that that would be a really scary prospect.

12:10It kind of highlights the importance of competition in the market.

12:13Because if that was just one company that was doing that

12:15uh owned that entire sort of landscape, they already have that innate capability internally.

12:20Not saying they use it, but they already have that capability.

12:22Right, so 98% of all smartphones are running on iOS or Android.

12:27Exactly, exactly

12:28But then I thought, what about mobile phone providers, right?

12:31They have a pretty good look your phone every five to ten minutes is broadcasting its location back to the cell towers.

12:38And that cell tower information is used to triangulate effect

12:41Now when the police need to they can access that information and triangle at your location with an incredible accuracy and that history goes back several months.

12:50It's not just like the here and now, it goes backwards.

12:52And so I always wondered, well, could could could you implement a contact tracing system whereby you could not necessarily be as accurate as I was in a room with Ravi, but you could say there's a coronavirus outbreak in your area

13:06Everyone in this area stay at home for the next two weeks, right?

13:11Um, and sort of restrict restrict moving that way.

13:14Because I find it really hard to believe that you're going to be able to successfully um

13:19you know, get this contact tracing app to work.

13:22You need some sort of more broader system that is smart, but is smart in a way that isn't intrusive.

13:28And I I almost think putting something on your phone is more intrusive than you know the government broadly being aware that you're in London on a particular day, right?

13:36I think people would be more comfortable with government knowing you're in SE fifteen or se thirteen on a particular

13:41day compared to you're in a room with Ravi on that particular day, right?

13:45Absolutely.

13:45I I think that that's that you're you're hitting the nail on the head there.

13:49For example, because you know the second you put something on someone's phone, you're just like, right, what are they looking at?

13:53No, they just don't want to they want to know where you are based on your Bluetooth.

13:56Yeah yeah yeah.

13:56But I've just said to Oh this is my biggest bugbear with the Android still, right

14:00Because in order to allow certain apps you have to always say accept all or it's not going to install, like including like voice, like was it the listen to your voice calls or access to your microphone?

14:10So why do you need access to my microphone?

14:13You can't reject just a few.

14:14You have to accept all of it or none of it.

14:18Whereas iOS has a bit more customization in that point, right?

14:21So you do have a bit more control.

14:23Yeah.

14:24So yeah, I mean I mean that that's what's interesting to me.

14:27I think that that's uh you using the I um cell towers really does make sense.

14:33Now if we talk about digital identity in general, right?

14:36So if you're if you're linking this all to smartphones, you can get a very big brother because you know for example, more and more people year by year are adding their health information onto their phones

14:46Okay.

14:46So um uh I think the um I for example iOS has a great uh medical ID thing, so you can set uh when someone you've found someone, I don't know.

14:54Come across someone that's unconscious.

14:57If you've got your phone on you and it's an iPhone, you can add in your medical ID with c emergency contacts

15:02some information that you can add in there as well.

15:04So that that's all great happy days.

15:06However, what if that information then you know is used for other things for profiling?

15:11Now historically the best person to speak to you to understand who you are in in a like r pseudo-digital identity has been your banks, right?

15:22Right.

15:23So um we we've talked about Xperian in the past and the mosaic codes that they have.

15:28Um but really that th those these are the people that you have

15:32More most of the information about you based on how you know you can get a good understanding of who someone is by their spending habits, by the things they register to do with their bank accounts.

15:40Do you know all of these different things you can figure out based on their um the the their sort of his credit history, et cetera, right?

15:47Exactly, exactly.

15:48Exactly.

15:49So and I think it's I think sorry, just to just to finish my point, I think that the what this really boils down to is who do you trust?

15:55Do you trust a government?

15:57Which can change based on party and agenda and all this stuff, who funded by in the US super PACs and in the UK by uh unions, etc.

16:05, and lobbying boards.

16:07Or do you trust a company who's driven by profits and by shareholders

16:10Or do you trust a bank again who would also be driven by profits and shareholders and the most recent crisis before this one was caused by uh greedy banks and the

16:19you know, the ab um abolishment of the Glass Steagall Act that made meant that you couldn't have savings and investments as two two separate things.

16:27Uh sorry as two job things.

16:29Um

16:29So yeah, it's it's an interesting thing.

16:31Like who who do you trust the most out of this like this is your menu out of government, private company, tech company or bank

16:38Like who who's the best person to leave your PID information with?

16:42Well, I guess for most people it's like, well, the bank already knows who I am.

16:46So do I just leave it there?

16:48Right.

16:48They they I feel like a bank in the in the in the scenario in front of you, bank and maybe tech companies

16:53have you already so at what degree do you want to control and give them more and more

17:01And this is the thing, like I've I've always felt that, you know, this the the words the word demographic and identity are sort of incorrectly interchangeable in typical

17:12sort of discussion, right?

17:13So when you look at uh experience.

17:16Yeah exactly.

17:17It's just the you walked into my trap.

17:21If I talk about experience just as an example

17:23example, right?

17:24What they actually know about you is your demographic.

17:27They don't know that you are Tim Naguena and well actually they do, but they don't know that you they don't know that you uh you know what you do on weekends.

17:36They don't know necessarily

17:38um, you know, what you just bought at Tesco yesterday, but they do know that uh you're the kind of person who's likely to go to Tesco.

17:45They do know that you're the kind of person who's likely to do certain things on a weekend based on your past behaviors.

17:50So they can't necessarily define you.

17:53That's your identity, but they can give you a demographic.

17:56And the demographic allows marketeers to target you in a broad sense that actually makes sense for businesses.

18:01The difference with identity is it actually divines it defines exactly who you are.

18:06It it gives you a unique identification.

18:10It separates you from the other thousands of people that have the same demographic as you

18:14you so in a group of let's say 30,000 in a marketing campaign my identity should be able to signify who I am and that's the sort of next level of sort of uh information we're getting to now with the way online systems and digital systems work

18:29Because they all store information and log information.

18:31I think this is a big thing with VPNs.

18:34VPNs don't have logs.

18:36Logs are typically, you know, track information from servers, right?

18:40So server basically says, hey, I made an internet connection with Tom.

18:43Great.

18:44Okay.

18:44Bye.

18:45Now that is information that tracks who you are.

18:48Yeah.

18:49Now, if you're not storing that, then you have no logs on who you are.

18:52And therefore you, it is a fully private system.

18:54Uh so this is how VPNs typically work.

18:57Now if you go back to mobile phone companies and your bank, I've always had discussions with you about what it what is a bank in the modern day context.

19:06I think that conversation is where we started the thing of we should just do a podcast.

19:09I think that was the greatest.

19:11Exactly.

19:11Exactly.

19:12And you know, my my it to save everyone a lot of time and uh debate, my view is always that banks have lost their way.

19:18They used to be about money.

19:19It used to be about storing your assets, right?

19:21Whether it was financial assets or personal assets, jewelry or whatever.

19:25Today, they basically should be

19:28pivoting to this new concept of storing your digital assets, right?

19:31Because n you don't no longer need no longer need vaults.

19:34Cash is a disappearing concept.

19:36Um your net worth is purely digital nowadays.

19:39And as we go on further and further, currency is being almost replaced with sort of

19:44uh your assets in sort of lots of interesting ways.

19:47And so their whole purpose should be about asset tracking, which is why they're really big on Bitcoins, right?

19:52Because it allows you to track assets in lots of

19:54different ways.

19:55That's the real value of a bank.

19:56And now if we go back to identity, that's where a bank really kind of can play a really big role.

20:02And that's where you see them going into things like health insurance.

20:05Because that gets them closer and closer to kind of figuring out not just not just who exactly you are, but what kind of services you're likely to need at exactly when.

20:13This is what Monzo does really well, actually.

20:15Um, you know, they they they put the service right in front of you right when you need it.

20:19Uh they they wanna wanna turn themselves into a marketplace for um financial information, not just like a simple you're run-off the mill bank.

20:27And I think it I think it's an interesting sort of we're we're at this junction without really realizing it.

20:32And contact tracing is one of these things that

20:35cr crosses a threshold without the discussion happening because we're too busy looking the other way, right?

20:42Yeah, we we're at this point where we're too busy paying attention to the health crisis, which

20:46is the right thing, but because we're looking the other way, this whole swathe of technologies is is is coming through.

20:53I doubt very much that this example of Google and Apple working together will be the last time it will happen, right?

20:59Suddenly, this crisis has created a situation where they can collaborate in a in a very open and transparent way about how something works.

21:07They can figure out how the two technologies can actually interoperate in that sense

21:11And there's no doubt that this will create a benefit for both companies long term.

21:15If not, if if at least just figuring out how to work with each other, right?

21:21I I think I think you y I mean we talked a bit about the the innovation step about and the opportunity here for technology in this space where we it's almost accelerating

21:29People working remotely, et cetera, et cetera.

21:31Um but yeah, it's almost a girl, you know, to to use uh uh you know the

21:37Uh I've got to be careful what you say here, but the the love the love for the war analogies, right?

21:42Um but law uh war has always been a time for innovation like penicillin, etc.

21:47So it could be a time where we we start

21:49bringing in uh ideas of technology that may have may have otherwise not been considered.

21:53Um I think I I don't I don't the digital identity extends, I think

21:58a bit further into the the tech and social media debate, right?

22:02So for example, you know, w when there are cases of abuse and bullying online or racism and people um hide behind an unon anonymity

22:13um there's there there needs to be some sort of verification about who you are, etc.

22:16And I think this will grow and I think if there then becomes a centralized system for

22:22uh you this thing can ni never be centralized right because you're you're talking about people's identities here.

22:27Right, right.

22:28Um but you know in in some cases you know the the idea of

22:31having one place to find uh or one authentic authentic place to verify your identity or many different ways so you choose your provider.

22:40That really will help that discussion as well, right?

22:42So the the digital identity will not only

22:44uh give you benefit in terms of allowing you access to certain services.

22:48But you know think about like prevention of pro fraud, um of online crime, uh ch changing the way we work with um things that are time consuming or might seem repetitive.

22:58Um access to goods and services that are age restricted or you know, even even things you're entitled to because they there's a better understanding of who you are.

23:07Uh and anyway, you don't you the the the chances that you're frauding a government system and of course government systems are the last to uh be updated to the modern world, uh you know, things like paying tax should be so much easier than they are

23:19Right.

23:20Yeah, imagine like a fully automated tax and benefit system where you you don't you don't need to do anything, right?

23:26You just you just live your life.

23:27It's fully optimized, right?

23:29And uh you know if you have an income, great, the tax comes out of that.

23:33If you don't, you're unemployed.

23:35You don't have to notify someone you're unemployed.

23:37The system knows that.

23:39And you know, if you want to go out and look for a job and you get employed, it just all works together.

23:43At the moment, there's a lot of things we do, which is just

23:47We are kind of the hamsters in the wheel, right?

23:49Yeah.

23:50Like think about the gig economy, right?

23:51So the gig economy could be that you're getting uh twenty dollars this week, twenty pounds next week, and then

23:57Six that six thousand in in the three weeks that that's been like a backdated thing.

24:00Right now you have to do all these things to make sure that they could go right into the correct system.

24:05Some people might pay you be paying you by PayPal because it's easier, etc.

24:08etc.

24:09So

24:10Proving identity can sh suddenly become simple, secure, and private.

24:14So I I sound like um some sort of advert for it now, right?

24:18Um But you know th there are there are upsides to this.

24:21You know, that there are things where you can start building out

24:25who you are and and and and as long as there's some sort of multifactor authentication piece or fingerprinting fin fingerprinting system and encryption enabled in these systems

24:35then then it works.

24:37Otherwise, but again you come back to the same point.

24:40Like who do you trust?

24:41Who do you trust in this?

24:42Who do you trust in these scenarios?

24:44Yeah

24:46Yeah.

24:47Really, really tough.

24:49Um I I I think the one the one aspect that I think we can we kind of seek solace in is that I'm actually glad that it's Apple and Google doing this

24:59Does that make sense?

25:00Because if you look at China where the government did this instead, right?

25:04And you know, when the government does this, it's got a completely different level of um

25:10sort of connotation like uh in many ways I'm glad two unrelated companies who have a healthy competition have come together to do this because it's a healthy reason for them to break apart and remove that capability

25:21from their devices.

25:22Whereas a government, well, well, given how long it's taking to, you know, do very basic things like PPE and you know resources and getting people

25:31Um you know, income that had been furloughed or unemployed.

25:34Just think how long it would take to unwind something like this if the government implemented it.

25:38Right.

25:39At least I know that Apple can switch off the feature on my iPhone as soon as this is all over.

25:44Right.

25:44They either give the capability the NHS.

25:46As soon as this is all over, I have a fairly confident stance that Apple will switch that feature off

25:52And if they don't, I have a choice as a customer to go to platform.

25:55Right.

25:56So like like a PR disaster for Apple is absolute trash

25:59Because they're you know versus a PR disaster for a government.

26:02Like a government is a PR display.

26:04Which is an election.

26:06A government is a PR disaster.

26:08It's called an election date.

26:10Yeah.

26:14That's all that happens.

26:15And you know, these things are f short termists, you know, they're three, four years.

26:18You know, app companies like Apple and Google have the capability to achieve things that governments can't because they have had the leaders in those positions for decades almost.

26:28These people have been working in that company with the same mission and aim.

26:32And so they're doing things that frankly, you know, government should have this capability.

26:37Shouldn't it be it shouldn't be Apple and Google, you know, sourcing masks for goodness sakes, right?

26:41It's the kind of thing that that the the uh government should be doing.

26:45It shouldn't have to be Apple pulling strings in its supply chain.

26:48Just just on that, I can we're very close to especially the last two episodes, turning into a policy and government episode, but like a podcast rather.

26:56But I think the other thing is um thinking about this as a a government as a business sense, which is how difficult it is to get a government contract and become an approved supplier of services and goods.

27:06for a government agency, be that a council, be that a um for the health authority, you know, th there are quick and easy solutions, but I think private businesses are able to make those decisions faster without due process.

27:21And I think, you know, again, like I said, um I feel like this is a great time to hide bad news.

27:26This is a great time to hide to slide something under the door that might have otherwise been been forgotten.

27:31Um but yeah, you have to think about the due process.

27:34So yes, it it's very easy to say like, you know, they should be just super simple just to be like, yeah, we'll take all of the PPE.

27:39But

27:40You know, that there are approved supplies and agreements and all these things in place that could just screw the government for years to come if if they if they are broken or breached.

27:48Um so it's quite inter and quite interesting time in that sense as well.

27:51But I think in terms of data and tech and digital identity, um

27:55Again, there's there I I I'd agree with you.

27:57Like you you you almost feel a private company or a bank or something are more likely to turn something off.

28:03Right.

28:03Right.

28:04Uh that they they can be they can be the loosest folks um typing in the password and watching it blow up behind it.

28:10Right.

28:10Um

28:11There there is there is one aspect though that I think is going completely under the radar and that is uh the the world of advertising, right?

28:18Right.

28:19The world of advertising has been incredibly innovative about getting around uh privacy blockers.

28:24Whether it's ad blockers or something.

28:25Oh yeah.

28:26It's a fascinating.

28:28It's a constant innovation war between advertising companies and technology companies.

28:32to stop them getting the data they want.

28:34And what's interesting is we're all at home spending more and more time online, right?

28:39So I I I can't not imagine the fact that the all this additional data is somehow helping advertising.

28:47companies better profile because all the world's all the world's activity is being channeled through one platform.

28:53I mean who's advertising on billboards?

28:55No one.

28:55No one's seeing them.

28:56Who's advertising on TV?

28:57Okay, yes, that's pretty popular thing to to advertise on.

29:00But again, lots of the content is actually on YouTube.

29:02It's actually on social media where people are

29:04staying in touch.

29:05So those those activities are actually happening through a laptop, through a phone, rather than the typical TV.

29:11The TV is just a watching platform.

29:13You can't learn anything about someone.

29:14from it other than the shows they watch.

29:16Whereas your laptop, you know, who you're talking to, which websites you're visiting, what kind of transactions are you making?

29:21Everything is being forced through this funnel and this funnel is gonna build an understanding and capability that I think will be quite dangerous once we

29:28come out of this sort of uh cycle.

29:30So I'm really hoping that you know everyone ramps up their digital savviness as it were and starts to really get to grips.

29:37As we're all online, everyone spends a bit more time being savvy about

29:41privacy.

29:41I'm really hoping more people are using VPNs.

29:43They're using ad blockers and trackers.

29:45Very basic techniques to stop their privacy being invaded.

29:48Oh maybe they're not, right?

29:51I I said I hope.

29:52I didn't say they are.

29:53Yeah.

29:55I think that the tech literacy definitely hopefully will be be increasing uh over this time because people are more realizing like

30:01The dangers of online and the the the sort of things they're having to go through.

30:04Uh you know, they're spending more and more time in front of screens, right?

30:07So like I mean after work I always set end up sitting in the garden reading for a bit just to get away from screens that I'm around all day

30:14Um yeah, it's a interesting time.

30:17I think that I think that's a good place to leave it, right?

30:20Because I think Right, right, right, yeah.

30:23Um yeah, well that's that three corona related things on a to on on the trot.

30:27But I think you know similar similar to

30:30I guess Brexit where we we won't stop talking about it.

30:33This is something that we can always refer to and I mean I joked early on that this would be this would be a fantastic exam question to be in the future about sort of exogenous shocks on our economics exam.

30:43Right.

30:45Yeah, it's a very interesting kind of little uh lots of theories and games being played out in real life here at the same time.

30:53Exactly.

30:54So it's quite fascinating.

30:57But yeah, just to the listeners, like do send us in like topics you do want us to cover.

31:01Like we said, we've got a couple of things in our back pocket.

31:03to talk about uh in in the coming weeks.

31:06But um yeah, do reach out and let us know what you're what you're interested in hearing us talk about or if there is anything in particular that you've seen or heard uh that you'd like m myself with him to debate.

31:16Perfect.

31:17And I'm just I'm just I'm just gonna finish on a on a shout out.

31:20So if you haven't checked this out already, Tim's done a bunch of a bunch of great work that's um started off with sketchnotes.

31:27So if you didn't check this out already, um sketchnoting is a great technique and and Tim spent his um what was it, your staycation uh last week learning how to do this.

31:37Yeah.

31:38It was good fun.

31:38I I have to say it was a it was more of a creative journey than it was like me trying to do something as a piece of work.

31:45But um no, I yeah, no, it was really, really good fun and I'm I'm just really warmed by the reception.

31:51people have really enjoyed the video.

31:52So yeah.

31:53And more to come, I hope.

31:55Uh yeah, this is the pressure now.

31:57Like uh I need to try and make sure I'm not Lauren Hill with a one hit wonder of an

32:00album or something like that.

32:02Of all the one-hit wonders you could have gone for.

32:05Well that that's the thing.

32:06Lauren Hill had such a great voice right, had a such a great uh Fuji's album and then her own album was

32:11Misseducation of Lauren Hill is probably one of the greatest albums of all time, right?

32:16And then nothing has ever come since.

32:18Oh wow.

32:21What a note to end on.

32:24If you disagree, if you disagree, if you think Lauren Hill has had other hits, let me know.

32:29But honestly, uh it's no.

32:31So anyway, no, I've got lots of pressures to follow.

32:33Follow up that one video.

32:34I've I've had literally countless messages on that topic as well, so

32:38I think every message has ended.

32:39I'm looking forward to see what you do next.

32:42I'm just gonna put all those messages in the drawer and carry on as I was, basically, and just set out to do what I aimed to do, which is just try and make Tableau easier to understand.

32:51So yeah.

32:51No, that's what will be.

32:52Excellent, cool.

32:53So uh I think that's that's a great time to great place to leave it.

32:57Um everyone take care.

32:58Let us know your thoughts um at Dayton Pod on Twitter uh and datumpodcast.

33:03com as well.

33:04So yeah, until we speak to you next, take it easy.

33:07Alright, take it easy.

33:08Catch in the next one